WatchGirl left me a comment that requires a blogpost response:
"Help me out here, cause I want some resolution on this subject. I've got the whole foundation thing, I just get confused when I read my NT. What do you do with all those letters from Paul that tells you if you break one law you've broke them all, that the nw covenant freed us from the old one and it is better, not to put hat yoke back on etc....I guess where I'm at right now is I think the law will be in place in the Milleniel Kingdom because it is his ideal for people to live, and it was in place, but is there a pause button from the time Jesus rose again, and when he returns - sort of like Moses suspended circumcision while they wandered in the desert for 40 years.... I don't think the church has it right -they only focus on saving ya and blessing ya, but I'm trying to look at the COMPLETE revelation and Paul did speak to the gentiles AFTER our savior's death and reserection...... Anyway, you know the sides, I just feel like I'm in the middle in a no-mans land. Have you seen/heard any good resources are understndingPaul diffeerently??"
Good questions! I know you are doing TorahClass.com studies so I'm slightlyconfused that you still are not sure if Torah is relevant or if it's suspended. I do know that every command given that is something we can be doing, we should because it's one way that our Heavenly Father has given us to participate and not just be spectators in this relationship. For example, the Feasts and how we observe those, this includes weekly Shabbat.
I've seen others refer to Torah as the moral law, which makes sense, even Yeshua summed it up.
(there are several ways to number these, I'm just choosing the one my Torah community uses)
1. I am the L-RD your G-D who brought brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. (this is not how christians quote the 1st Word because this implies that HE is the G-D of the Israelites and we'd need to be grafted in as one of them in order for HIM to be our G-D as well...think Ruth here)
2. You shall have no other gods before Me.
3. No Idolatry
4. Don't take/use HIS name in vain
5. Guard the Sabbath Day
6. Honor parents
7. do not murder (take an innocent life)
8. No adultery (notice how this is what we think of as cheating on a spouse and idolatry is cheating on G-D)
9. do not steal
10. a. don't bear false witness/accusation against your neighbor
b. do not covet your neighbor's things
Mark 12:28-31
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Yeshua answered, "The foremost is, 'SH'MA/HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE L-RD OUR G-D IS ECHAD;
AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE L-RD YOUR G-D WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
I don't know why the babies born in the wilderness were not circumcised. One source I read ((which I saw some inaccuracies in the writer's thinking, like Moses children were at home with their g-pa and mom because later Jethro brings them to Moses))anyway this source says the commandment to circumcise was still there but the people paid no heed to it. And of course it's circumcision of the heart that is important.
Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
http://www.eliyah.com/warning.htm tells us about Paul's writings --- it's short, please read it
Also my Jewish Roots instructor is reading a book called The Letter Writer by Tim Hegg which deals with Paul.
and now for some notes from said JR instructor: (and a taste of what your sister is missing out on)
Reconciling the Law of G-D in the NT context
If we can agree the Law of G-D is eternal and does not change just as G-D Himself is eternal and does not change and that HE is not a man that HE should lie (Heb 6:17-18), then we have to seek a position of reconciliation of the terminology that surrounds the use of the word LAW within the NT scriptures. If this is the case then we have to approach the scriptures in a way that is different from that of a commonly understood christian mind set. This issue is so important that it will change how we approach the entire Bible, especially the Tanach (OT).
The biggest obstacle seems to be the understanding of the context from a first century Hebraic position, especially since the writers of these documents were all Jewish oriented. We will examine some of the problem texts which should give us a premise for understanding other similarly used terminologies. The thing to remember is that the texts sources are not the problem, but rather the way they are interpreted.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life (the heart direction of that which is acceptable) in Messiah
hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (this goes back to Adam and Eve and the fall, Gen 3:3)
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak (the weakness of the Law was that it did not have the power to save anyone, it never was suppose to. The purpose of the LAW was to be the finger that points to righteousness and to Messiah Yeshua as the redeemer of mankind) through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 7:12, 14 & 16 - "the Law is holy/sanctified; the Law is spiritual; and the Law is good" -- the problem is NEVER the LAW, but rather the heart intention of mankind.
Romans 7:25 - "The Law of G-D"-- The five books of Moses called the Torah and the administration of righteousness that it presents. Reveals the very character of G-D Himself.
Romans 10:4 - "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law..." - the word END means end result, conclusion or the goal, NOT that the LAW was ended by Yeshua, because HE did not come to abolish the LAW but to fulfill and no one is to annul the least of the commandments....read the context Matthew 5:17-20
I Cor. 9:20 & Gal. 4:5 - "under the Law" - Used as a Jewish idiom it means one who is under the authority of the Torah or Torah observant. It is NOT a negative term!!!
Gal. 3:13 - "curse of the Law" -- the curse of the judgment incurred by violators
I Cor. 9:21 & Gal. 6:2 - "The law of Christ" - the LAW of the Messiah is the SAME as the LAW of G-D because Messiah is G-D. Isaiah 42:4 speaks of the Messiah's Torah.
James 1:25 - "but one who looks intently as the perfect Law, the Law of -G-D's definition of the LAW, that one is free to do what is right. (much like our own founding documents)
James 2:8- "the royal law" - the context links this to Lev. 19:18, love your neighbor as yourself. This one scripture covers much of the Torah. (and the deeper you go, the closer you get)
Colossians 2:14
2 Cor. 3:6 -with my JR instructor's amplifications in italics "...for the LETTER (of the LAW) kills (those who violate it), but the SPIRIT (of the LAW) gives life (and liberty to those who observe it)."
He has a drawing of a sword and it's labeled the sword of the Spirit on the blade and says Torah on the handle and shows it's a 2 edged sword that cuts on each side, one side says disobedience with its consequences (sin & death) (man+sin=flesh)
the other side says Obedience with its Blessings (righteousness leading to eternal life)
then are listed some verses to go with the picture
Heb 4:12 -- "thoughts and intentions of the heart" -- we have an evil yetzer and a good yetzer
Rev. 1:16 - a sharp two-edged sword
Romans 8:4 - according to the Spirit
Gal 5:16 - walk by the Spirit
Gal 5:25- live by the Spirit/walk by the Spirit (Halakah)
Gal 5:22-23 - fruit of the Spirit
I Timothy 3:16 - vindicated in the Spirit
John 4:23- in spirit and truth
HTH
3 comments:
Thanks for yout thoughtful post, I will come back tonight and read it more carefully when I won't be interupted. Yes, I'm doing Torah study and that is why I have questions, but I have to be convinced in my own mind and every time I pause the study and read through the NT on my own I come back with questions and I want to really understand. I don't believe Scripture contradicts itself, so I know it is my understanding, however I get confused with progressive revelation and don't we have a morefull picture from the later texts? Anyway, thanks for your response. I'll be back after kiddos are in bed and I can think! : )
yes, that does help. Thanks. I think part of th issue is 1) our chirch and the christian school we asociate with a HUGELY Classical - I know greek thinkingis so ingrained in me. 2) As your post said embracing this is a totaly different mindset. I would be foolish to totally embrace something that I wasn't fully convinced of, or sure i was correct. Since we have no real life flesh and blood people to discuss this with it is only by reading, praying and the Holy Spirit that we are moving forward. I am sure that as long as we are seeking after Truth , he will be sureI get the whole picture. That is why it is called a journey. - Torah class makes you think a lot, BUT it doesn't address most of the NT issues that arise.
we can fully embrace G-D's Word because HE does not change and HE does not lie.
We can fully embrace it even if we are not convinced or understand it.
Some key things we get from Judaism that christians really should practice:
Faith is authenticated by obedience.
Obedience is determined by the Commandments.
The Commandments set the parameter for sanctification.
And obedience comes before understanding.
We don't need to know why in order to obey.
I'm sure we all agree with that.
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